Lvxferre [he/him]

The catarrhine who invented a perpetual motion machine, by dreaming at night and devouring its own dreams through the day.

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Joined 1 year ago
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Cake day: January 12th, 2024

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  • If that’s correct good for him. Seriously.

    The same people who might cheer you up, when you’re creating drama, are the ones who silently avoid you when it comes to working together. Because drama is only fun when it affects other people, not you.

    And going by what Simona Vetter said in the mailing list, this is not the first time:

    [Vetter] And this isn’t the first time or the second, by now it’s a pretty clear pattern over some years. And with the first I could explain why you [Hector Martin] react like that and you had my full understanding, but eventually that runs a bit thin as an excuse. Now I’m left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi [Mastodon?] or reddit or wherever.

    And being off social media will both decrease the odds Martin creates drama, and reduce the visibility of the drama he creates.


  • To add to what @chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world said, I’ll use an example.

    Alice and Bob are organising a party. Alice claims that they should serve cheap wine. Bob argues for cheap wine plus beer. Alice is rather stubborn on saying “no, we’ll get drunkards this way”; it’s a poor argument but it’s still about the drinks.

    Then Charlie pops up out of nowhere. Charlie is not part of the party organisation, but he’s still planning to attend the party, and he’s a biiiig fan of beer. He picks a megaphone and says “Hey! Alice is calling every beer drinker a drunkard! As a beer drinker, I feel deeply offended by that. If I was Bob I’d simply buy lotsa beer and ignore Alice.”

    Then you get a bunch of people, who’ll never attend the party, eating popcorn while they watch the “Alice vs. Bob+Charlie” fight. Except that there’s no fight; Alice and Bob are arguing about something, and Charlie is creating drama. And a few popcorn eaters are bound to exert pressure towards Alice to give beer an OK sign, without even bothering to hear her side of the matter.

    That is brigading: regardless of his “intentions” Charlie is bringing random people into the discussion to exert pressure towards one side of the dispute. Including muppets that think that anyone trying to get what Alice says must be “illiterate beer haters”.

    Now replace Alice, Bob, Charlie with Hellwig, Rust4Linux devs, Martin. Replace cheap wine with C and beer with Rust. It’s the same deal.


  • Here’s the relevant kernel mailing list thread. There’s a lot of stuff going on before, mind you, but this part onwards is important.

    If you didn’t read all of this (I don’t blame you), here’s how I am reading it:

    • [Hector Martin] Rust devs, just submit the patch. Either Torvalds likes it or not. I assume that people against us are saboteurs. I know the future!
    • [Simona Vetter] You can’t eat your cake and have it too; either call it quits or try to change things from the inside, not both. Also stop creating drama, it affects me, and I’ve seen you creating drama for years, just so social media platforms can have their popcorn.
    • [Dave Arlie] Sima (Vetter) is right, stop creating drama. You are not helping [us? them?] this way.
    • [Martin] I feel tired and this justifies my behaviour. I also got deeply offended with the word “cancer” being used to refer to the Rust4Linux project. The process is broken. If my brigading doesn’t work then say what else would.
    • [Linus Torvalds] The process works dammit. Your brigading makes me not want to touch this shit. Patches matter, discussions matter, brigading doesn’t, you’re the problem here.

    Martin’s toot (mentioned by Vetter was deleted, but still readable from an archive link.

    Personally I think that Vetter, Arlie, Torvalds are being spot on. It’s relevant to note that, based on the mailing list plus this blog entry, Arlie is at the very least sympathetic towards the Rust4Linux project, if not part of it.




  • But…that’s exactly what’s happening

    Well, then based on what you guys (specially you) are saying, it’s old man screaming at cloud. Torvalds and/or Kroah-Hartman* will likely need to intervene, since as you said they approved it; this drama Martin is doing in social media is pretty much pointless.

    And if there’s a violation in the CoC it has zero to do with what he says (calling the R4L project “cancer”); it’s about obstructing other developers.

    I also just catch something from the post I didn’t notice before:

    As for how to move forward, if I were one of the Rust maintainers, I would just merge the patch

    Martin isn’t even relevant! He’s just for the popcorn, like the rest of us! Free kernel development popcorn!

    *speaking on Kroah-Hartman, do those changes proposed by the project affect the stable branch now?


  • I'll put this into spoilers to reduce clutter for the others, it's a big wall of metadiscussion.

    I am not a programmer. … I’m a random with a chimp avatar. … It’s just that [Hellwig] prioritises consistency (for the sake of maintainability)…

    Pick a side and stick to it.

    There’s no “two sides” here. I’m transparently saying that what I say should not be trusted, for those two reasons (1. not a programmer, 2. not in charge of this), and I’m still voicing my opinion on this matter, while focusing on other aspects of the discussion. Is this clear now?

    Note: one of those two reasons likely apply to everyone else here.

    You seem very keen to endorse Hellwig’s arguments

    If anything I could be blamed for the exact opposite - endorsing R4L. You don’t even need to read this comment to see it, the comment that you’re replying to is enough: “And if Hellwig cannot be convinced, the leadership can, and should.”

    Learn the difference between “talking about what others said” and “endorsing what others said”.

    despite not understanding them,

    Assumption: “not a programmer = unable to understand what’s going on”. I think that I showed well through this thread this is blatantly false.

    and also to emit words on the topic despite not having a qualified opinion

    Refer to the first paragraph.

    It’s also relevant to note that, most likely, nobody here has the “kwalifikashuns” to discuss this topic. Not even programmers - because odds are that nobody here is in a position to change anything about it.

    It sounds like you want me to not take you seriously

    Okay… so far, so good.

    (so that I won’t reply to you)

    *rolls eyes* assumption, again. Clearly assuming why I’m being dismissive towards you.

    It has zero to do with me not wanting to be taken seriously. It’s because you show blatant lack of basic reading comprehension, while still saying this “I’m docking you” cringe. For example, vomiting an info dump that does not contradict a single shred of what I said (as if it contradicted), or with a hypothetical that is clearly irrelevant (“if it was a slur” - it is not, period).

    Worth noting: nobody here has in a position to “dock lol” anyone else here.

    and also take you seriously (so that you are counted as part of the programming public.)

    Assumption…

    Quoting Gaynor: [insert quote]

    Cool beans. And this does not contradict what I said, because contrariwise to what you are assuming = making shit up, I am not endorsing Hellwig’s view that Rust does not belong to the kernel, I am explaining his point of view while clearly saying “okay, Rust in the kernel seems fine, based on what people said here, but Martin is creating drama”.

    I couldn’t be arsed to read the rest of the text. Other users are able to provide information about Rust here, so I’m not missing anything, minus the cringe and assumptions.

    TL;DR: stop assuming.



  • Your position is entirely reasonable and an excellent example of how ignoring technical details leads to failures of technical leadership.

    That’s why I didn’t address the technical merits, like a leader should. (Nor I am a leader; I’m a random with a chimp avatar.) I focused on the “popcorn” / drama.

    [ Rust info dump ]

    Cool beans.

    What I’m saying is that Martin should be sharing this info, instead of creating drama.

    Because ultimately the goal of both sides is the same, a better kernel. It’s just that one prioritises consistency (for the sake of maintainability) and another the advantages of Rust over C, and those priorities are in conflict.

    And if Hellwig cannot be convinced, the leadership can, and should.

    Also, finally, I have to dock [to reduce wage from; to deduct points from] you for reading comprehension. Martin was quite clear: calling Rust a “cancer” […] was, to them, a violation of the Code.

    I’m saying that Martin has the moral obligation to make his complain as precise as possible: “The CoC says [insert excerpt] and Hellwig is going against that”. Telling people to RTFCoC is the opposite of that. Is this clear now?

    Also, this either is or isn’t a violation of the CoC. There’s no space for “to them”, rule violations should be handled as objectively as reasonably possible. (From a quick check, it doesn’t seem to be one. I might be wrong however.)

    a cute pun given Rust’s crab mascot, or a dehumanizing slur, who knows

    There’s no room for either reading, given that

    • Hellwig shows no interest on Rust, so references to the mascot are out-of-place
    • A project is not a human being.

    The immediate reading is as an analogy; cancer is known for spreading itself through tendrils, taking huge amounts of resources. If that reading is correct, Hellwig is criticising the project for not being well contained, and invading spaces that Hellwig believes that it shouldn’t.

    Another possible reading is “cancer” as “shit”, “crap”, or “rubbish”; a simple negative word.

    were it a slur, it would violate the prohibition on “insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks.”

    And were my cat a chicken, she would lay eggs. However my cat is not a chicken and “cancer” is not a slur.



  • I am not a programmer. If you showed me C code and called it Rust, or vice versa, I would probably not be able to tell the difference. As such I’m not going to focus on technical merits or demerits, I’ll focus on what people say.

    This is relevant:

    • [Danilo Krummrich] What does “your code” mean? Duplicated in every driver?
    • [Christoph Hellwig] Yes, interfaces to the DMA API should stay in readable C code and not in weird bindings so that it reminds greppable and maintainable.
    • [DK] Rust drivers shouldn’t use C APIs directly, but rather use an abstraction of the corresponding C API.
    • [CH] Don’t force me to deal with your shiny language of the day.
    • [DK] Again, no one asks you to deal with or maintain this piece of Rust code.
    • [CH] Maintaining multi-language projects is a pain I have no interest in dealing with. If you want to use something that’s not C, be that assembly or rust you write to C interfaces and deal with the impedence mismatch yourself as far as I’m concerned.
    • [DK] This is exactly what we’re doing and proposing here, isn’t it? // We wrote a single piece of Rust code that abstracts the C API for all Rust drivers, which we offer to maintain ourselves. // What else are you asking for?
    • [DK] Since there hasn’t been a reply so far, I assume that we’re good with maintaining the DMA Rust abstractions separately. // Hence, the next version of this patch series will have the corresponding maintainer entry.

    What I take from this interaction is that Hellwig is not really picking a bone against Rust; his main concern is introducing new languages into the kernel and reducing its maintainability. And IMO Krummrich’s answer up to the second-to-last reply was really great - addressing the complain by highlighting that C developers won’t need to bother with that chunk of Rust code. (That last reply was awful, though.)

    Based on this interaction I think that I agree with 5714 in this thread, that Hellwig might be overreaching.

    So far, so good. What Hector Martin is doing there is something else. He is not selling the merits of the project Rust4Linux, he’s simply creating drama, by distorting Hellwig’s position from “don’t bring new languages into the kernel” into some sort of personal crusade against Rust.

    And it’s rather “curious” how he brings up the CoC as some sort of rubber stick to bash people with, but omits which part of the CoC Hellwig would allegedly have violated.

    [@raulinbonn] @marcan He does use the proper name shortly afterwards, but calling it “the another language” instead of just Rust sounds already quite loaded and belittling really. As if trying not to even acknowledge its proper name and existence.

    Relevant tidbit: “the another language” sounds like a word-by-word translation from German “die andere Sprache”. It doesn’t really sound dismissive in German (Hellwig is clearly a German speaker.)

    “As if trying not to even acknowledge its proper name and existence.” - okay… now the user is assuming = making shit up. It’s perfectly possible that Hellwig simply didn’t call it “Rust” to focus on the fact that his problem is not against Rust, but against a mixed language codebase - the complete opposite of what raulinbonn is assuming.


  • No, I only saw it after I solved the problem.

    my reasoning / thought process

    Initially I simplified the problem to one prisoner. The best way to reduce uncertainty was to split the bottles into two sets with 500 bottles each; the prisoner drinks from one, if he dies the poisonous wine is there, otherwise it’s in one of the leftover 500 bottles.

    Then I added in a second prisoner. The problem doesn’t give me enough time to wait for the first prisoner to die, to know which set had the poisonous wine; so I had to have the second prisoner drinking at the same time as the first, from a partially overlapping set. This means splitting the bottles into four sets instead - “both drink”, “#1 drinks it”, “#2 drinks it”, “neither drinks it”.

    Extending this reasoning further to 10 prisoners, I’d have 2¹⁰=1024 sets. That’s enough to uniquely identify which bottle has poison. Then the binary part is just about keeping track of who drinks what.


  • solution

    Number all bottles in binary, starting from 0000000000. Then the Nth prisoner drinks all wines where the Nth digit is “1”. have each prisoner drinking the wines where a certain digit is “1”.

    So for example. If you had 8 bottles and 3 prisoners (exact same logic):

    • number your wines 000, 001, 010, 011, 100, 101, 110, 111
    • Prisoner 1 drinks wines 100, 101, 110, 111; if he dies the leftmost digit of the poisoned wine is 1, if he lives the poisoned wine starts with 0
    • Prisoner 2 drinks wines 010, 011, 110, 111; if he dies the mid digit is 1, else it’s 0
    • Prisoner 3 drinks wines 001, 011, 101, 111; if he dies the right digit is 1, else it’s 0

    If nobody dies the poisoned wine is numbered 000. And if all die it’s the 111.


  • OpenAI was not the first domino, just the one that got the most attention.

    Yes, that is correct. And perhaps it got the most attention because of all the ruckus Pigboy did over “his” precious data (i.e. users’) + because it made the whole thing hard to ignore.

    Remember when you bought shit once and that meant you owned it?

    Yeah. I was talking about this with my mum today - the chat started with my cat refusing litterboxes, then “if this was the 90s old newspapers would do the trick”, then on how you don’t really own books you buy from the internet (unlike pirated ones). But it’s the same deal with some physical goods, if someone can brick them from a distance they aren’t really yours.

    [Sorry for the rambling.]



  • Initially I was thinking on how this is such a blatantly bad idea. I don’t think that it’ll attract chip makers to USA, but instead send the industries relying on those chip makers to other countries. Because as the text says it takes years to build a chip factory, and those industries downstream simply won’t wait.

    Then it clicked me - government debt. He might be trying to find new sources of income for the United-Statian government. They only need to last four years - if they ruin the economy later on, it is not his problem.




  • We don’t need to lie about it; not even by omission.

    In the best case scenario, Meta is employing an automated moderation system, it’s incorrectly tagging what users share as “spam”, and can’t be arsed to fix the issue in due time - note that this was already attested at least September 2024. That’s more than enough to blame Meta.

    Given Meta tells the truth, but I don’t see any reason to doubt this.

    I see quite a few reasons to not trust = be gullible towards what Meta says. Starting by the fact that it’s on its best interests to silence mentions to competitors.