Do not take anyone that buys a mac seriously. In any way.
32GB has been my minimum laptop memory for YEARS now. My current laptop was 64GB from the factory and 2 years later I made it 128GB. Nice socketed ECC RAM. If the RAM or SSD is soldered on a laptop, I’m not buying it.
But but the memory is more efficient, 8 is actually 16!
LMAOOOOOOO 🤡
UM on an SoC is not the same thing as RAM on a PC with a CPU and GPU. It’s purely a storage liaison, since data is passed directly from core to core.
It’s not that it’s more efficient, it’s simply used less than in conventional PC architecture.
MacOS is also designed specifically to leverage the hardware, so practical use is the only legitimate comparison to a PC.
Maybe PC Gamer isn’t the most informed reviewer of technology outside of PCs.
What a load of nonsense. You’ve got no idea how a computer works. RAM isn’t just used for passing data between cores. If anything that’s more the role of cache although even that isn’t strictly accurate.
Whether a system has a discrete GPU or not doesn’t really factor into the discussion one way or another, although even if it did having more RAM would be even more important without a discrete GPU because a portion of the system RAM gets utilized as VRAM.
It’s not that it’s more efficient, it’s simply used less than in conventional PC architecture.
It’s not that you’re wrong from a philosophical perspective with that, it’s that you’re factually incorrect. Memory addresses don’t suddenly shrink or expand depending on where they exist on the bus or the CPU. Being on the SoC doesn’t magically make RAM used less by the OS and applications, as the mach kernel, Darwin, and various MacOS layers still address the same amount of memory as they would on traditional PC architecture.
Memory is memory, just like glass is glass, and glass will still scratch at a level 7 just like 8GB of RAM holds the same amount of information as…8GB of RAM.
The article actually quantitatively tests this too by pointing out their memory usage with Chrome and different numbers of tabs open.
Looks like you didn’t read the article.
You should familiarize yourself with the architecture before commenting. The GPU is broken into several cores of the SoC, along with the roles of the CPU. The UM is not part of the SoC. However, data is passed from what could be referred to as the CPU to what could be referred to as the GPU without interacting with UM.
I’m actually deeply familiar with the architecture, and how caches, memory, and UM’s work. I understand all of that. None of that changes the storage available. Having high memory bandwidth to load/unload memory addresses doesn’t fix the issue of the environment easily exceeding 8GB. I also understand the caching principles and how you actually want RAM utilization to be higher for faster responsiveness. 8GB is still 8GB, and a joke.
Use your experience and analyze Apple’s M SoC before we continue this conversation.
A weeklong battery life, efficient cores, rapid response time, and great software environment make it a great choice…at 16GB for my needs. I will not recommend 8GB to any user at all going forward. It’s marketing malarkey with no future proofing, degrading the viable longevity of the machine.
There’s no conversation to continue. Glass is glass, and 8GB is 8GB, as well as being a joke.
If it’s great for your needs, the base model isn’t for you. You can stream video with have 30 tabs open in Safari and only use 4.6GB of UM on an M1 Mac. I just verified for you.
> most powerful chip available in a laptop and arguably one of the greatest overall laptops ever
> 8 gb ram
my phone has 12 GB of ram what the fuck is apple on
It’s a strategy to push customers toward the more expensive models. Their markup is massive, it’s a blatant profit move.
And, since the ram is soldered to the fucking mobo, you can’t upgrade it yourself. It’s a ridiculous and craven strategy for a company already nickel and diming their customers.
but the cultists still love them.
my 3 year old phone has more RAM than that
This is nothing to brag about, when Android needs this to run smoothly, compared to the same performance of a 6 GB RAM iPhone.
Edit: Just look at benchmarks and every day use cases. How exactly has any Android smartphone ever achieved any significant speed gains by using huge amounts of RAM compared to the then-current iPhone model? I agree with the Apple criticism when it comes to computers. When it comes to efficiency of smartphones, Android just seems to have tons of overhead and has always needed significantly more RAM than iPhones while not being faster at all. Maybe we can put the „look at how edgy I am for not using Apple devices“ aside for a moment.
Who let the apple marketing people in here?
I can say that it wasn‘t any of the Android edgelords or Linux neckbeards.
Some of us want to buy tools instead of toys. 4GB was great for the xbox 360 slim. Will it run anything a sane person would get a mac for? Probably not, most mac DAW I’ve used personally are hungry and 4gb is less than the machine I had my last crash filled experience on.
I work with my Mac every day. It‘s not a toy. I chose the platform in the early 2000s because I liked the OS, the far superior app experience across many 3rd party apps and because I like to work with things I like aesthetically. I chose a 32 GB MacBook Pro with M1 Pro and paid for the upgrade. Because I could and because I wanted to (100% tax deduction helped as well). No need for pity or anything.
Android has a garbage collector, meaning it requires an additional 2GB of RAM of overhead to keep things smooth. iPhones run significantly hotter than Androids, and consume more energy to achieve their performance gains.
It’s not true to simply state “one is better than the other”. There’s various metrics in which either one may be better.
That‘s exactly what I was criticizing. So how is “more RAM = better“ as an absolute statement right, then?
jfc this is inane.
there’s this thing called multitasking, you might have heard of it. when you want to open more than one app and use them all at the same time, GUESS WHAT BRIGHT LIGHTS? Takes more memory.
This is the dumbest shit take I’ve ever seen.
I‘m talking about smartphones. Funny that you‘d call me bright lights when you even lack the basic skill of reading.
Never had any problems with „multitasking“ there since the iPhone 5.
LOL, you think people don’t multitask on smart phones and tablets?
oof… and yes, on android you can have both open on the same screen at the same time. I don’t know about fischer price unix, er, aye-aye-aye-os…
nah, didn’t misread, you’re def the sharpest tool in the spoon drawer.
Sure. I have just never encountered any problems. I used to, to be honest, as mentioned back with the iPhone 4 where Safari tabs were reloading because of the lack of RAM. But Android had its own problems back then, for example with the update policy of most manufacturers leaving my wife‘s Android phone obsolete after only one year.
What exactly do you do? Hook up your smartphone as a desktop replacement with a bulky USB dongle, firing up some CAD software on two 6K displays while rendering an 8K HDR video in the background? People never disappoint creating completely made-up scenarios just to discredit.
Never talked about tablets, so it’s reading – again!
Me, with my PC that has 32 gb of ram: 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Laughs in 64 GB, just don’t look at the timings…
Puny mortal! (128GB)
Cries in 64Gb
They’ll continue selling these, purely because of two reasons:
- On an Air, 8gb is the bare minimum that is realistically viable, for people who don’t do anything than browse the web, who they can later upsell, when they get a new machine.
- They can immediately upsell you for every extra memory tier you would need. This makes them a colossal amount of money.
Practically all of us know that the difference between these memory modules is pocket change, when mass produced like this, but for those extra couple cents, they get an extra 100$ from you
On an Air, 8gb is the bare minimum that is realistically viable, for people who don’t do anything than browse the web
Thanks to the modern web, web browsing of one of the most RAM intensive tasks. Add a few Electron based apps and you’re in hell.
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By any chance, does that dell run windows?
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But can it compile UE4 from source?
explanation
If you compile using multiple threads by core count and low RAM, you may see crashes depending upon size and configuration of the project.
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Please do educate me on as to how to get Unreal Engine 4 as a “plugin” (of what?) without building it.
The only ways I see to get UE4 on Linux is to install the AUR, which compiles from source, or Compile it with your own settings from the GitHub project.
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Sorry, that didn’t work last time I tried.
sure it could! It would just take two weeks!
Just because you can get away with 8 does not mean you should. Go google around and find just how cheap an additional 8 gb of laptop RAM is these days.
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I didn’t say 64. I said 16 which is perfectly reasonable. Your comment reads like damage control from an apple employee.
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Such a weird hill to die on for Apple. How much does it really cost to just add 8GB more RAM? $5?
This is just like the iPhone (lack of) storage and the (lack of) SD cards. Apple is trying to maximize profits by using less RAM and by forcing people into buying more hardware in a few years. Apple does a lot of stuff very well but then they also pull this crap.
I like Apple. Got Apple Watch, AirPods Pro and iPhone. I love the design of MacBooks however I refuse to ever buy MacBooks.
Overpriced like crazy. For half of the price you can get a really great laptop.
I’m honestly even thinking to buy a €200 android device to get used to the system.
I’m honestly even thinking to buy a €200 android device to get used to the system.
Don’t. Unless it’s a slightly older Pixel A-series 2nd hand phone. Manufacturers of cheap Android phones skimp on everything and add bullshit crapware. Shit like that is the cause of many “Android sucks” comments.
Ohh that’s sad to hear. I was thinking to get the Samsung Galaxy A14.
The A30 and A50 series are fine to be honest, plenty fast for most people. Not sure about the A10 line though
Don’t the new ones have shit processors?
would be a very ecological phone if it had a waste treatment facility built in
Apply phone directly to anus.
Apple has their niche, but you’ll never find me owning a Mac. They are not useful for me. And fuck the proprietary nature of Apple in general.
That being said, I run 64GB of RAM and it’s glorious!
Yup, I have a Mac for work and I’m not a fan, I don’t even like the look of them, much less the UX. The keyboards suck, they don’t have actual mouse buttons on their laptops (I really miss my middle mouse button), and the gestures on the trackpad annoy me. I use a Logitech mouse (MX Master 3 at work, Triathlon at home), and both are way nicer than anything I’ve used from Apple.
I much prefer my Linux machines at home. They don’t lock up, my laptop (Lenovo ThinkPad) has real mouse buttons and the Trackpoint, the package manager just works, and updates don’t take forever and a day like on macOS. Oh, and I use Docker for work, and on Linux it uses far fewer resources because I don’t need a full VM.
Oh, and I can easily add more RAM to both of my Linux machines. I am not interested in any Apple products, and them selling with 8gb RAM just makes no sense to me since memory upgrades are so expensive and must be done at the time of purchase. So screw em.
I have a Linux workstation and a MacBook. The arguments about keyboard and trackpad are personal preference at best. You can use whatever external devices you want with the Mac. I used Logitech mice with mine too.
If you want a package manager on Mac use Homebrew. It’s better than you’d expect for a system that doesn’t include a native package manager. I use docker on both Mac and Linux and can’t really tell the difference.
I bought my last MacBook with 64gb ram. It was probably overkill but I didn’t see any reason not to since you can get one refurb for essential 50% off. It sucks that you can’t upgrade the ram, so make sure you have a good idea what you need when you’re buying the machine. Anyone buying one with 8gb is essentially buying a Chromebook. That’s not adequate for a power user like you.
Yes, it’s personal preference, but I can’t realistically use an external keyboard and mouse on an airplane or whatever. I like my ThinkPad way more than my MacBook Pro for actually getting work done. It feels nicer to type on, and my hands don’t need to leave the home row to press mouse buttons. Apple’s trackpad is nicer, but I think it’s solving the wrong problem.
That said, I have a very keyboard-driven workflow. I use:
- ViM for editing
- terminal for searching (macOS’
openis nice) - shortcuts for switching apps (
alt+taband `alt+`` mostly) - tmux for terminal window management
That mostly maps to macOS decently well, but there’s also random differences I need to work around.
use Homebrew
I use macports, which I much prefer.
Rant about homebrew
Homebrew feels bolted on, macports feels more like an actual package manager. Stuff keeps working across macOS releases, which is nice because o use fish as my shell and don’t want to fix that every time I do an upgrade.
Rant about macOS as a dev
But it feels like putting lipstick on a pig. I constantly have to fight builders that grab the system version of something instead of my macports one (I think I’ve resolved everything now?), especially Python. I can’t do system upgrades through it. And so on. It’s just an add-on package manager, and while it’s nice, there’s friction at the edges.
That said, I very much prefer macOS to Windows, but I prefer pretty much anything else to macOS. I would prefer FreeBSD if it had better hardware and docker support.
I use docker on both Mac and Linux and can’t really tell the difference.
Do you have Docker Desktop or CLI-only? Because IIRC Docker Desktop on Linux runs in a VM like on macOS, whereas CLI Docker ruins directly on the kernel, so it’s way faster.
Here’s some practical issues I have with Docker Desktop on macOS:
- random breakage where I have to restart Docker (the VM, not an individual container) - i.e. “API version doesn’t match…” like every other week
- uses way more RAM - containers are just processes on Linux
- disk space is separated and needs to be adjusted if I forget to run a prune - docker on Linux just uses my regular disk
- rebuilding is kinda slow - assuming a Docker Desktop issue because “sending tarball” takes forever
We have a bunch of docker containers, and I’m regularly running 10+. I feel like I’m constantly fiddling with Docker on macOS, whereas it’s mostly transparent on my Linux machines.
So to me, it’s just a crappier experience. I honestly can’t think of a single upside, other than the pretty GUI, but learning a few CLI commands is a small price to pay IMO.
And that is also my general experience with macOS. It looks pretty, but it just feels like I’m interacting with the system way too much, whereas on Linux the system gets out of the way.
Rant about macOS
Some specifics:
- “snapping” Windows - macOS kinda has this now, but Linux has had it for as long as in remember (15 years?)
- launcher (Alt+F2 or Meta) on KDE Plasma is unobtrusive
- the system updates when I tell it to, not overnight randomly
- Steam actually works for most games
- Flatpak and Appimage are nice
Rant about work policy
If my work let me pick whatever computer I wanted, it would probably be a Framework or Lenovo laptop with Linux. But my options are locked down, crappy Windows (IT box) or MacBook Pro (no IT nonsense), so I pick macOS.
In fact, I think only 2 of my coworkers prefer macOS, but we use them to get around IT policies and the outside team that started the project convinced the uppers that we need it. However, as a lead, I need to be the support for our team, which means I should probably use the same devices as them.
My last job let me pick my OS, so I ran Arch for 5-ish years before switching to openSUSE Tumbleweed, which I still run today (like 5+ years now). I’m not going to leave because of Linux vs macOS and I love my team and boss, but I do prefer Linux.
Anyway, I’m kinda excited because I’ll be getting an upgrade soon. I’m on an Intel Mac, but I could get an M3 if I push, or maybe I’ll wait for the M4. I’d much rather run Linux on that hardware though.
It sounds like you want to have a mobile server, which makes sense too for some use cases. I just switched from 2018 Intel to M1 Pro Max and the difference is absurd. They were giving them away at MicroCenter refurb so I got one with overkill specs. Sometimes you can throw hardware at your problem and in this case it worked. It is faster, quieter, cooler, longer battery life, etc. I use BetterTouchTool to address some of the UI issues you noted and forget I have it until I use someone else’s Mac.
I initially set up the new machine via Thunderbolt and copied the apps, which was a mistake. That said every homebrew installed app worked. It was not too hard to purge the Intel homebrew and reinstall the Apple silicon version, and battery life got much better after doing so. Apple Silicon is a game changer. Everything I’ve seen about M4 says it’s supposed to be on TSMC N3E. Personally I’d go with whichever generation lets you get the most ram and ssd.
I’m a fullstack engineer that mostly focuses on backend, so yeah, I basically want a copy of our production app running on my work computer. I have Docker configured so it only uses 4GB or so, but when I add our frontend (1-2GB), web browser (1-2GB), Microsoft crap (1-2GB), etc, the RAM adds up, and that’s just running half of our backend infrastructure.
The silly thing is that almost all of my job is on Linux services, except our mobile app, which is React native and largely targets iOS (though we also support Android). I work across the stack so I need to be able to run all three (backend, web, and mobile).
But I have to pick and choose what I run because my 16GB system is barely enough. So yeah, I wish we would’ve gotten 32GB at the outset, because swapping to disk is by far the biggest performance issue.
So yeah, get more memory than you think you need.
I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts about this medium article describing the use of Lima VM for docker on MacOS.
This author needs to go back to a time where you had to manage 512MB of memory.
People back then would’ve killed for 8GB now.
The problem I see though is software developers having a field day with not caring about optimizing and not making their software bloated as possible so that it doesn’t require so much memory.
the ‘problem’ is: you can’t upgrade; you’re stuck with that 8gb.
want more in a year or two? you have to buy a new mac. and that’s apple’s goal–sell more product. buyers will be back (because they’re hooked on the platform and ecosystem) to buy a new one sooner than they otherwise would have.
Well that’s what you get for being a tool and buying Apple products.
All of us PC users have had the convenience of upgrading anything we want. While Apple users just bitch about the choices they’ve made where a company decides how much they think they need and whether or not they can upgrade.
Wah wah wah.
it’s not just apple anymore. all the major ‘pc’ makers have non-upgradeable laptops now… just not across their entire line-up (yet).
That’s a daft take. The reason that software now requires more RAM is because it can do more than in 1998.
That doesn’t excuse the ridiculously high requirements.
You realize that just because things used to be worse, doesn’t invalidate complaints about how things could be better now, right?
I think the comparison went over your head and I didn’t use a word wrong. Try not to think too much into it. Oh wait, you did.
8 is fine for a tablet.
8 is not fine for a brand-fucking new state of the art laptop.
My iPad has 3GB RAM and honestly that’s enough. I don’t know what you do on your tablet, but for my everyday activities I have never felt limited
We’re talking about laptops though. I was just using tablets as a comparison point.
I replied to the wrong comment
“With an apple silicon architecture, 8gb is like 16gb” -some stupid apple flunkey
The irony is that it’s arguably the opposite, since the GPU and CPU just have a shared memory pool, rather than having dedicated memory and the shared memory pool.
So if you’re watching a 4k video, you might have lost a gigabyte or two just for VRAM.
It’s because they think that people only do one thing at a time.
New feature turns off the screen to flush graphics memory so the cpu can process data.
8 GB is fine for a medium-priced laptop, where you can add more or at least swap out the existing stick for a bigger one if you ever need it.
What kind of stupid world is it where 8GB of RAM is actually not enough? I’m not doing anything that fundamentally different to what I was doing 10 years ago, and back then 2GB was fine on the low end of things.
It’s like adding lanes to a highway, it doesn’t reduce traffic, it increases demand. Developers will create software that needs more ram just cause they can. So unless you want to be running office 2010 then it’s necessary.
640k should be enough for anything right?
fuck progress, eh?
goddamn this is dumb.
I too come to the internet to feel and be generally mad at random things
this is a trap to upsell you 16 GB or sell you upgrade
It’s also a nice way to tax their poorest customers more. A lot of people are keeping their machines way past what apple provides updates for, if the ssd that can’t be changed dies (because of constant swapping) faster than what they intended or could keep the machine for, I guess it’s too bad for them.
You can’t upgrade a Macbook’s ram, you need to replace the whole machine
for grossly inflated pricing, in proud apple tradition.
How is it not true? Damn near everyone I know that has a macbook uses it to cruise the internet and look fancy doing it.
